Life Values and Raw Diet

    Posted by L∃N∀ (me, Lena) on August 28, 2010 at 10:36am in Off topic Chat on 30BaD. This discussion in original has a different structure, so here you will see the answers not in time line but in logical line.

Questions

I'd like to ask you guys how you integrate your decision to eat totally raw in your life, and what would you do to stay 100% raw, not 99%, not, 98, 95, and so on?

I think, life values often intersect. Let me give you two actual examples:

1. After being 100% raw fruit for months, more than two years ago, I had my little informal birthday party, and one old lady, a good vegan friend, knowing that I am fruitarian and being a great baker herself (it is her life-pride), brought a vegan cake (or was it a pie? :) that consisted of a thin plain base layer without sugar, and lots of raw organic strawberries on top of it. She was very excited, told us how exactly she made it, where she got the fresh berries and could not wait for my reaction. And you know, I ate a piece of cake, said her that it was delicious - it really was - and everybody was happy.

I told the story later to some raw folks and was harshly criticized, they told me I don't love myself enough, because I let myself be "intoxicated with bad food" by somebody, and that I have not enough will power to refuse and say a person what I think. I don't know, maybe.

Would you refuse to eat? Would you tell an old lady: thanks, but not for me? Would you maybe eat only the berries and leave the crust on the plate?! What is more valuable in this case: keep being perfect or not offend a person?

2. After a long trip with only little food (a couple of bananas and 1 apple, for example, as it was with me last time), coming home late, exhausted, still having nothing fresh to eat, and hungry: would you eat anything cooked or just drink water and try to sleep? I normally prefer the latter in such situation, but not always do, because it is normally wrong time for fasting: too stressful, and I could not sleep well in such conditions. (I can fast for 48 hours easily, but only if I feel like it). Maybe you would try to get something raw somewhere anyway, at any cost? Do something special? I mean, if you are really hungry, not just craving for taste. What would be better for your health?

I hope you understand my questions. And I would be delighted, if you share with me your deepest motivation for being raw 100%, it could help me a lot. Thank you!

Replies:

Julie on August 28, 2010 at 10:45am

    Hmmmm, yes I understand how these could be really difficult!

    1) As for the first question, I would probably just say that I wasn't hungry at the moment, but that I would love to take some cake home for later. I would try to really show my gratitude about the present.

    2) There are grocers open here 24 hours. I would just go there and get something. I know it can be a pain, but its worth it. I try to always have something on hand, especially dates.

    I don't think that being 100% is more important that a lot of things in life, but it is possible and if you can find a way to be so, then it will truly benefit you!!

    Thanks for those questions Lena!!

L∃N∀ on August 28, 2010 at 11:13am

    Julie, I appriciate your understanding and advise!

    BTW, That was MY party, my BD - no option to take the pie/cake home :)
    Yes, showing the gratitude only could help, I hope... If I ever get in such situation (I hope I won't, but that was a spontaneous party without invitations, even my hate towards presents was disregarded :).

    That's a good thing, to have always something! I try it too, but it is not easy with fresh fruit I prefer to eat, and I fail in it time to time. Where do you get raw dates?! I have never even tried one! Most of them are not even sun dried.

    Thank you Julie, I'll work on it :) And I'll check for 24-hour stores around!

Ivan on August 28, 2010 at 11:01am

    100% raw 100% of the time is a Good Luck.

    1) I would tell the lady the truth, you can eat it but will feel sick cos its cooked devitalized and damaging to your body. In Future she will make you a raw pie or fruit salad or fruit pie. You could show her how to prepare it. And you could offer it to your friends if they are into eating cooked. Who cares if you eat it or not?? They say that a gift is a gift and once its given its your right to decide what to do with it. You can even pass it to another one. When you feel confident about this you no longer create misunderstandings. If people still get offended then its better not have them to much around. However you could empathize on how you appreciate this gift she made 3000 times and make her feel special nevertheless hey!!

    2) Remember how you feel after a cooked meal: Void, empty, sick, depressed, lost, dehydrated, weak, lazy. Not sure if everyone will agree but I guess we all if honest. When I come at terms with "cooked thoughts" every now and then I always have a mantra saying: COOKED FOOD IS NOT THE SOLUTION. Its like, I know it wont resolve the problem. If you have undereaten all day long, not eaten optimal and fresh products, eaten to much fat your basically reaping the consequences and creating a ... lets say ... not optimal situation. If on top of this you "resolve" the problem with a even grosser action like eating cooked food, then your not only not resolving the problem, but also falling into a situation where you no longer are willing or strong enough to see clear why at all in the beginning you created confusion. So ,,, Cooked Food Is Not The Solution. You need to address the cause. Some dried fruits are easy to store. Back up on Dates, Raisins, Figs. Or a water fast in any case if you have nothing at all. Sometimes we have to learn the hard way to play it hard. I think its a matter of experience and observation and the willingness to choose the best option available over the years.

    Do you feel the difference between 100% raw and 95% or are you fine doing 95% "escapes"??
    Kind of a question.

Ivan on August 28, 2010 at 11:27am

    oh yeah and the berries would be worth to eat 4 sure!!

L∃N∀ on August 28, 2010 at 12:00pm

    Yes, berries were very nice! :)

L∃N∀ on August 28, 2010 at 11:56am

    Thank you Ivan, your logic is sound and helpful, here what I have to say on that:

    1. Truth is always good, you are right! I must have understood it myself! Thanks!
    "a gift is a gift" - is cool :) I normally use it, justifying for myself donating my presents, I should start using it on food! You and Julie are on the point: giving plenty of gratitude is the solution! And truth.

    2.

a) Strangely, I do not always feel that, actually, certainly not lost and empty, but dehydrated and lazy very often! The explanation, why not, could be that I chose only low-fat vegan stuff and eat it in small quantities.

b) I'll try to keep from now on to: COOKED FOOD IS NOT THE SOLUTION. But my tricky mind says sometimes that maybe in some cases it is. I have written an article on why raw, I studies the subject for so long, and I am not absolutely convinced that certain cooked vegan foods would harm me more than lack of sleep, stress, under-eating, etc.

c) "...falling into a situation where you no longer are willing or strong enough to see clear why at all in the beginning you created confusion..." - this is a great point! I would add the luck of concentration on keeping the greatest state of health possible, because one could be carried away with thoughts on totally different subject, that seems or is more important. But please note that I am not talking about cravings here.

d) I am not doing good on dried fruit! I tried to rely on them a lot in my early fruitarian years, but I didn't felt good. I don't think they are real raw food, and to get at least sun-dried (which is in many cases not raw anymore ether) organic fruit is a big problem. Plus, I hate raisins, they are too sweet for me, I can't eat them. Fresh figs are unfortunately very perishable. There were a period I relied on nuts for such cases, but I felt even worse over the time with substantial part of them in my diet.

e) Water fast saved me many times! But not always.

f) "willingness to choose the best option available over the years" - that is what I try to do, but not for diet only, separated from other things in life.

    Most of the time I do feel much better totally raw. But sometimes a bit of cooked food seem to make nothing to me, especially if it is only a tiny portion (most of it is a spoon or 1 inch piece of vegan food my friends offer me to try with words like "just check out what I made!" and so on :D And I test it, and cannot consider myself purely raw after that :)

Eatraw on August 28, 2010 at 12:03pm

    probably best to keep eating cooked food then, you seem to have too many reasons against raw for it to work. I had to drop these before I got it right.

L∃N∀ on August 28, 2010 at 12:07pm

Do you mean to stay 95-100% raw as I am now? Have you stopped to be raw all together once and switched on cooked/mixed food?

Eatraw on August 28, 2010 at 12:11pm

    I always wonder how people calculate their rawness, how do you know your percentage is 95?
    Yup I went back but I want best, not okay. 100% for a few months now.

L∃N∀ on August 28, 2010 at 12:37pm

Great for you Eatraw! Excellent!
    Actually, I estimate I am 98-100% raw, depending on period, but I say 95 for the case of possible misjudgment. Details are here, if you are interested.

Ste on August 28, 2010 at 12:41pm

    I think Ivan's description of cooked food is extreme, lumping everything thats cooked into the same category and what you said simply isn't true. Its the kind of stuff that scares people away from this lifestyle.

    I'd rather have some steamed veges or steamed sweet potato and maybe even a little rice than dried raisins or most dehydrated fruit. The dates I buy I soak if they're too dry - most however aren't. Also, most dried fruit contains preservative or some sort of vegetable oil or some other crap and these aren't raw foods. I don't plan to have cooked food anytime soon, and I'm always well stocked, but I certainly won't feel guilty about not being 100% when I deviate. 100% doesn't suit my nomad lifestyle and it never will until I stop travelling - which may never happen. Currently I'm settled in Melbourne for 6 months so 100% suits me just fine. In the long run, my very occasional cooked meal won't make any difference when it comes to longevity.

    Personally if I thought I would have enjoyed a small piece of the cake she made I certainly would have tried it. If I didn't like the look of it I wouldn't, and I would have been honest and apologised.

    If 100% raw isn't right for anyone they shouldn't beat themselves up or feel guilty, or be made to feel guilty by others. If 100% is the goal then its just a progression and you'll get there eventually. I have a lot of respect for people who are truly 100% lfrv, but its simply not for everyone.

Fruit.atman on August 28, 2010 at 12:49pm

    this is a great perspective, attitude, approach... thanks

Arrow on August 28, 2010 at 1:01pm

    "I have a lot of respect for people who are truly 100% lfrv, but its simply not for everyone."
Really? Then I'm on the wrong forum...I believe that it is for "everyone"...and that "everyone" is just to damn left brained to realize it... Isnt this the misson? To be the change we want to see in the world?

Ste on August 28, 2010 at 1:28pm

    "everyone" is just to damn left brained to realize it...'
    lol, thats a big statement and its your personal opinion, nothing more. You keep pushing this lifestyle on others and see how you get on.
    Nothing of what I said takes away from being the change you want to see in the world, but its not as simple as just eating 100% raw food is it? Do you buy all your produce locally, and organically grown? Do you grow all your own food? What about all the other stuff that makes such a huge difference that's not dietary? How much of a change do you want to be? My hypothetical sweet potato and rice may well be more 'ethical' than your hypothetical bunch of banana's.

    Perhaps I should have phrased what I said as 'but 100%lfrv is simply not for everyone'.

    Most people aren't ready and most never will be. Change is hard, and 9 out of 10 people when given the option of change your life style or die, choose death.

L∃N∀ on August 28, 2010 at 1:33pm

    "....being the change you want to see in the world, but its not as simple as just eating 100% raw food..."

- Exactly.

Freelee on August 28, 2010 at 2:28pm

It's never "as simple as eating rawfood" that's why we promote a total lifestyle change here - not just eating raw food however eating rawfood is the biggest part of the health puzzle. Anyone can do this lifestyle but they have to WANT to do it and not compromise to please others.
    Good points Arrow.

Arrow on August 28, 2010 at 2:58pm

    I dont push this liftestille onto anyone...except myself. And it isnt my personal opinion...its' fact...

L∃N∀ on August 28, 2010 at 1:04pm

 Ste: "I'd rather have some steamed veges or steamed sweet potato and maybe even a little rice than dried raisins or most dehydrated fruit.

I feel the same, and I don't know why. And that's a great point on preservatives and oils!

I travel all the time too, and actually almost never had a stable life (under force of circumstances and by choice).

Ste: "In the long run, my very occasional cooked meal won't make any difference when it comes to longevity."

- well formulated! I agree.

I have a huge respect for 100% raw vegans too! And whant to learn more how they make it.

Thank you so much Ste!

Ste on August 28, 2010 at 1:32pm

    Thanks for your kind comments L∃N∀ and Fruit atman :)

Heather M. on August 28, 2010 at 1:33pm

   Ste: "If 100% raw isn't right for anyone they shouldn't beat themselves up or feel guilty, or be made to feel guilty by others. If 100% is the goal then its just a progression and you'll get there eventually. I have a lot of respect for people who are truly 100% lfrv, but its simply not for everyone."

I absolutely agree with this statement (as usual with Ste's comments!), and it's funny to me that through this whole process I have realized that I AM one of those people who wants to be 100% LFRV permanently. I didn't know this in the past. When I would encounter hurdles, I would feel discouraged and conclude I wasn't cut out for 100% full-time. I would tell myself, "Well, there is nothing wrong with being high raw." And there isn't. It wasn't until I started reaping the benefits of LFRV that I realized, Wow, I can't go back. This is way too nice!

L∃N∀ on August 28, 2010 at 1:51pm

    I felt like that many times on my nutritional path, but months and years go by... :) I wish you are the one who make it permanent, Heather, you seem to be very decisive.

Jenni on August 28, 2010 at 2:26pm

    Yeah, much agreed! simply but beautifully put... thanks, ste!

Ivan on August 28, 2010 at 5:42pm

    "I think Ivan's description of cooked food is extreme, lumping everything thats cooked into the same category and what you said simply isn't true. Its the kind of stuff that scares people away from this lifestyle."

    Hi Ste. I was replying to LENAs question specifically not suggesting a "100 or not" approach to people out there to start with. Its easy to take my words as a generalization but I em answering this specific case not the average person out there, still -I believe- it may be easier to stick to a 95% raw than to a 70-80% raw like other often suggest, however its individual question and very complicated to answer here. Lena has been eating this way since many years, she has come up with a question and needs to find out why at all she is asking us: Is she not feeling fine on a "occasional" cooked meal? I dont know , she seems and seems not. If she is fine then its ok but then still she is asking maybe a part of her still wants to know. My experience with (even very) small amounts of rice, potato, steamed veggies etc.etc. has shown that a 100% or not approach is where I want and need to be. I can get seriously addicted by just tasting a spoon of cooked food and unfortunately wont stop there. Its like withdrawing from a drug and no I dont want to have to withdraw from such horrible states "ever now and then". Im glad things work out otherwise for you (and others), I wish the same but so far nothing has proven the contrary: I dont tolerate any cooked food, not even "healthy" one.

    As for dry fruits you can buy 1. organically , and 2. raw. Some may still use oil but you have the ability to choose - not all brands do it. We can always soak dry fruit for better digestion and for the sake of our teeth.

    I wanted to clear this quickly. Thanks ;)

L∃N∀ on August 28, 2010 at 11:20pm

I feel that the raw-only way is the best, but I don't feel bad enough on occasional cooked stuff Ivan :)

"I can get seriously addicted by just tasting a spoon of cooked food and unfortunately wont stop there. Its like withdrawing from a drug"

Maybe this is going on with me, elusively, or I lie to myself, hiding it...

    Ivan, I do not believe that even sun-dried fruit are actually raw - the temperature gets too high! Oven-dried - the same, surely. Where one can get shadow dried fruit or oven-dried by low temperature?! One can order in internet some I think, but that is a lot of trouble to keep them always available by traveling and such, and soaking takes time too. But I think I should try to keep some around.

Ivan on August 29, 2010 at 12:01am

    commercial organics are dried at around 45-50´C. But you have to check the brand. Here in Europe it differs alot from brand to brand. Just give them a call and then stick to the ones that are lowest. I prefer 45-50´C Sultanas to steamed veggie or potatoes. If you buy at raw online stores sundried means not heated above 40-42 C. But theyr more expensive. :=)

L∃N∀ on August 29, 2010 at 12:09am

    Excellent advise Ivan, I'll look into it.

Here is what John Kohler from rawfoods.com says: "I have spoken with many manufacturers and distributors of dried fruits and even "dried tomatoes" and asked them the temperature at which their product is dried. Usually it is well over 200 degrees.  They say this proudly, because its not too feasible to dry products at an acceptable temperature to a raw foodist (around 118 degrees or less) because there would be an inconsistent and "ugly" looking product."

Arrow on August 28, 2010 at 12:42pm

Lena..I so appreciate this thread becaue these are some of the issues I have...though in a different way.

    Sometimes love seems to be a one way street. You do something because you love someone and you dont want to hurt their feelings and you want them to continue loving you. But..is that love returned? Obviously it wasnt returned or you wouldnt have the question.

    But I dont think what those raw foodist said to you was right. You and I ..are still transitioning..and until we get it "right"...until we stand firm ..with grace...we will always want to make other people happy...and when we do get it "right"...I imagine those same people will admire us...and their need of love via food will change.

    I know this...so many moms and grandmas love us via food...but really they are looking for love through their food....It is all they got...

L∃N∀ on August 28, 2010 at 1:19pm

    Thank you Arrow!

    I am not a very loving person, I must say. In such situation it just does not seem right to me to refuse! This brave old lady went vegan in her 70s after she learned what people actually do to animals. It changed her life dramatically because she was a great cook and backer all her life. I respect that a lot. I could not refuse in that moment, I don't care what the food might have done to me, and I believe it done me good! There is something more to life that own bodily perfection, actually, I think the state of mind is very important too, if we'd like to be practical.

    Yes, Arrow, we are transitioning, and I do for very long actually, and maybe soon I find the way to be raw even higher. With my own grandmother I can laugh and say: "Hey, dear, you know I don't need that, I am great!" but with less known person it must be more delicate, I think.

Arrow on August 28, 2010 at 1:33pm

    You are a loving person! I am too....BUT...there is always a but...when it comes right down to it..dont we know ..inside..really know..the truth?
    I think both of us need to eat more fruit calories..:)

L∃N∀ on August 28, 2010 at 1:42pm

    Loving is not one of my characteristics :D You might be right on fruit!

Fruit.atman on August 28, 2010 at 12:59pm

with your first example, it seems u were find with it until u told some 'raw folks' and were 'harshly criticised'...

    i know lots of times people can make u feel pressured to try their food, they have pride in what they made or cooked and they want u to try it... it is good to remain strong in ur beliefs and desire and not be afraid to say no even if it means the person might be offended, which is their choice and u should not feel guilty about it

    on the flip side i agree with Ste that in the long run the occasional 'healthy' cooked food will not make much difference when it comes to longevity

    so it is really ur choice

    just like u shouldnt feel pressured to eat something just because someone wants u to, u shouldn't feel pressured to stay 100% raw if u r in a position where u r really hungry and there are no other options...

    I AGREE with you that in some situations it would actually be healthier and less damaging to eat healthy cooked food like steamed vegetables than to go hungry, under-nourished, lack of sleep, stress, and the uncomfortability that can ensue from not eating enough

    cheers!

L∃N∀ on August 28, 2010 at 1:29pm

    Yes, Fruit.atman, I was fine :) But then in a conversation people started to ask me about my being raw and I could not lie. They ended up undermining my opinions because I was not 100% raw.

    It is not about being guilty, I think, It is about... the synergy of all life processes, intuitive choice and being free from possibly unneeded rigid principles.

    "just like u shouldnt feel pressured to eat something just because someone wants u to, u shouldn't feel pressured to stay 100% raw..." - yes, yes, that is it!

    Thank you Fruit.atman!

Ste on August 28, 2010 at 1:37pm

    'even if it means the person might be offended, which is their choice and u should not feel guilty about it'
    Indeed, although they'll blame their feeling bad on you! lol. I was surprised when I read this, not many people see the world this way. I bet we'd have a lot in common :)

Mountain Bike Mike on August 28, 2010 at 1:34pm

    #1 We live in a crazy world and no matter what we'll absorb toxins, be they air, water, earth borne, etc. (Ever consider the fact that your computer fan might be spewing out tons of altered particles? Who knows ... typing up your forum post might be 1000x more toxic than eating a slice of that raw pie.)

    #2 Fasting has always worked for me. Why do all the major religions mention/incorporate/require periodic fasting? Possibly to clean out all the cooked toxins. Possibly for spiritual strength.

    My deepest motivation is to overcome the karmic scars of my past and increase my ability to help others through natural health. I know I'll never be perfect (that's why we have Jesus/Buhdda/Mohammad/Lao Tsu/etc as examples), but I have reached a higher state through this lifestyle.

L∃N∀ on August 28, 2010 at 1:41pm

Mike, thank you! I agree on #1, we don't know.

    If I'd had your your believes, or any similar for that matter, I probably would be better of, more ...certain, I guess. But my mind wouldn't let me :)

juicyfruity on August 28, 2010 at 2:05pm

1. One piece of cake will not kill you. I really dislike how people put others down bc they dont eat 100% fruit. Do you see the world we live in!? I would rather eat a piece of that vegan cake then hurt a friends feelings who tired to do something nice.
    2. I would go the grocery store, or just fast.

Freelee on August 28, 2010 at 2:25pm

Interesting so you would deliberately eat something which a) isn't on your list of edibles b) you know may be harmful to your health... just to please others and fit in? Each to their own I guess however you may not feel that way once you've been 100% for a long period of time.

L∃N∀ on August 29, 2010 at 4:09am

    Hey Juicy Fruity, somehow lost your comment before. I was always keeping Nietzsche's words in my head in hard life situations, in English it would be something like: "That what won't kill you will make you stronger". You are capturing the essence of my difficulty!
    In 24-hour opened CVS they had not had even a vegan salad. Only few restaurants were still opened.

Freelee on August 28, 2010 at 2:52pm

    Hey Lena, it all comes down to what you want. Do you feel better eating totally fruitarian 100% ?(I know you don't like greens) or do you feel better with a bit of cooked food here and there? What's your intuition saying?

    I know I feel best 100% raw, I've been back and it wasn't worth it. What I eat isn't dictated by others so I don't subscribe at all to eating cooked foods to make others happy. Now don't take this the wrong way but after years of experience assisting people succeed on this lifestyle, to me (since following your articles and discussions) it really sounds like you're undereating on fruit, you're hungry and looking for a way to justify eating cooked food. I used to do the same thing all the time. I also feel like you really really want to be 100%.

    What we eat is a very very important part of how we feel, how we relate to others and our overall experience in the world. It's not EVERYTHING but I believe it's the biggest factor if we want to attain holistic health. The problem with having a bit cooked here and there goes deeper than what it may appear...Cooked food is always accompanied with substances which excite our delicate tastebuds and change our physiology and I would go as far to say - even distort our sense of reality and we will always be looking for more because satiation on low quality food is hard to attain.

    I don't know anyone who is able to have just a bite here and there. Cooked food is addictive, similar to a drug and it starts with just one bite....then a baked potato... then a whole plate...then a few meals a day.... Ok sure the low fat cooked vegan lifestyle can yield some great results but does it compare to a LFRV lifestyle? I think you and I know it doesn't. Another problem is that fruit is like a jealous partner, it wants to have you all to itself...in other words it doesn't like sharing your colon with sluggish food that holds it up on its journey. We then start to experience problems associated with sugar metabolism. Fruit sugar is designed to go through the body very quickly and when it is held up on its trip - it becomes 'angry' and starts causing all sorts of problems...which we unwittingly blame on the fruit instead of the sluggish stucko which caused the hold up.

    It can definitely be a challenge sometimes to stay 100% LFRV but once you're there for a while your strength will grow and it won't be so tough but you must firstly eat enough fruit calories.

    1) Yes without a doubt I would refuse it, I have done so in many similar situations. My loved ones understand and wouldn't let a cake come between us and if it does the relationship must not have been built of a strong foundation to start with.

    2) Fast - As I have done in similar situations :)

L∃N∀ on August 28, 2010 at 4:04pm

    Freelee, you are right in so many points about me: I do intuitively feel that 100% is the very best, and after several months of being 100% it seems impossible to me to go back, and I do want to learn to stay totally raw permanently.

"the cooked food is always accompanied with substances which excite our delicate tastebuds and change our physiology - we will always be looking for more."

This sounds very important to me! Is there anything to read on the physiology of it? That would be a great help!
    Testing probably remain the memory about these foods, and they are more probable to come up in special occasions. Forgetting it could resolve the "nostalgic" element of the whole issue for me. Unfortunately, childhood memories are very strong, especially if one lives in different cultures.

    I should mention, that most of the time I test cooked food I don't end up eating it, because fruit are just much tastier to me, and I learn that they are my actual food long ago, the rest is ...entertainment or a compromise, but in the rest of times I do eat more.

"[fruit] doesn't like sharing your colon"

Oh my, it is so true, not only because of sluggishness of other foods, but for plenty of other reasons related to intestinal microflora. There is not much research have been done yet, but enough to understand how little we know about it for now. I could swear it with all I feel and know, that fruit create a spescial wonderful balance in our flora.

    Fortunately (or not, because it would be a motivator to go "pure") for me, I am not receiving any significant problems, because between each of this cooked tests/meals I have countless fruit meals for weeks and months, seldom days. I am kind of tricking myself sometimes by not allowing bad things to happen and not inducing negative bodily responses, thus, not connecting cooked food to unpleasant symptoms. I am talking now about cases when I eat non-raw because I simply attracted to it myself, I have analyzed this issue a lot, improved a lot in the last 5 years, but I still have strange episodes, I have already described them in another post.

    I understand that you suggest me eating more, in fact, I tried it today, my aim was to eat even more than I can, to try it once again (it is not new to me, I was eating a lot in some periods simply because I could not satiate myself, and I had indigestion!), but I could not get higher than 2000 cal! I have described here what is going on, if somebody is interested. I had a relatively free day, and ate a lot, and still don't understand how could I eat that much. And as I told you already, I hardly ever experience any hunger under normal circumstances.

    1) Freelee, good for you!
    2) Will do more of it :)

    And thank you so much!

    I would like to share some ideas that helped me the most socially for now, maybe somebody could find them useful:

• To tell people I am making a nutritional experiment and must be very strict in what comes into my mouth.
• To tell them that my teeth are cleaned and I want to keep it this way and too lazy to repeat the cleaning procedure, because I want to crash into sleep later (to friends only :).
• Tell them I am fasting at this time.
• Or that too spicy/whatever food today will make unable for me enjoying fruit the next day, which would make me unhappy.
• To change the subject suddenly on something interesting.

Arrow on August 28, 2010 at 4:18pm

    I read your website..and I have to tell you that you are missing the point...you are not getting enough calories form fruit...it is 811...that means 80 in carbs..10 in protein and 10 in fat...

    I know..I am not getting enough either...BUT..I have reasons to stick to the plan.

    What harm does it do to really do 811 100%

    Think about what happens in this world...and how it could be different..if we all stuck to 811..

    Do you really want to spend you money on food that makes others rich with our illness?

    Cooked food makes us ill....

    Get it?

Eatraw on August 28, 2010 at 5:13pm

Arrow is right, you don't seem to be getting it Lena. I guess it took me a while too. Have you read the book?

L∃N∀ on August 28, 2010 at 10:53pm

Not yet, but I know the concept, I watched numerous Graham's videos.

    To all members who replyed: I was thinking about the subject during analyzing your invaluable advise, guys, and I discovered a fear in me (it has been my hobby for a while, fear-eliminating :). I afraid to get into a situation, where fruit are unavailable for a long period, and I want to be able to survive on simple common foods. Maybe it is caused by years of seeking fruit in not very fruit-friendly environment.

    More than that, after each cooked meal I had, there was a weird calming thought: "I am still normal". I think I have a slight social disorder going on :) and that's why I am enjoy so much to be here. The background of it is like this: the first vegan person I met in my life was a German girl in my Spanish semester in 2004! Before that I have not met even a vegetarian (knowingly)! It looks like I am a bit tired to be a "nutritional" outsider.

L∃N∀ on August 28, 2010 at 10:37pm

Then tell me guys, how I suppose to get that much by eating juicy fruit only without bananas on daily basis? As I have shown in my article, they are ~50 calories per 100g at most, and eating lots of berries, watermelons and cantaloupes, which are 25-30 calories per 100g.
    Even by 50c/g I'd need to eat around 5 kg (more than 11 pounds), with the latter - 9.5 kg (21 pound) to get 2500 calories - are you kidding me?! Am I doing some profound counting mistake here?.. Do you really think I need around 15 pounds of food daily???

"Think about what happens in this world..."

Arrow, I am a long term fruitarian and minimalist, I understand the idea of common good very well, but, as already had being mentioned here, it is unclear, what is more sustainable, organic apples in US from New Zealand or some briefly cooked millet from the neighbor-State. But I agree, we all need to do our best.

    No, I don't want to spent unreasonable amount of money, but sometimes, buying lots of expensive berries in Whole Foods, because I am unable to choose enough of other fruit (not ripe, extremely sweet - I cannot stand it, not fresh looking, just not the right king, or the same kinds all the time), I am a uncomfortable about my expenses, despite the fact I promised myself to save on fruit or organics. In all 16 years primarily on fruit, I've been very poor or in a highly risky financial situations, and there were times I add cooked food to my diet because of the low coast of simple vegan dishes I made, it can cost 10 times less.

B on August 28, 2010 at 6:21pm

    I spent most of my adult life being quite sick. I feel really good, even amazing at the best of times eating 100% raw. it's brought me a joy I hadn't known since childhood. the few times I've tried cooked stuff since going raw i felt lousy. I wanna feel good from now on. If someone feels offended because I choose not to make myself suffer that's their problem. I really wish I could eat anything and feel great but it's easier for me to accept reality than argue with it.

    On occasion I will eat small amounts of dried fruit or nuts that were likely dehydrated at high temps and/or pasteurized if there is nothing else to eat. Steamed veggies make me feel worse than those foods; roasted nuts don't work for me either. So for me it's not really about being perfect but knowing what compromises are the least harmful for my body and where I draw the line.

L∃N∀ on August 28, 2010 at 11:30pm

    Thank you B, you have a solid motivation to be raw.

    Why do you think that
    a) nuts are better than cooked millet, for example,
    b) or pasteurized (not raw) dehydrated fruit are better than a freshly made tomato soup?

"Steamed veggies make me feel worse than those foods..."

Can't say the same, but it depends on the veggie. Potatoes, for example, cause a throat-pain by me - I have no explanation for that, but it is true, it is most obvious the next day.

Ivan on August 29, 2010 at 12:05am

I get heavy headaches and extreme tiredness eating just one potatoe. R.Steiner was saying the starches are actually carried in the blood to be digested in the brain (front) reason why people on potatoes get very lazy, stop thinking and become superficial (does it remind you of some germans lol). Hence too the saying , couch potato.

    here is a link if ur interested: http://www.doyletics.com/arj/nutritio.htm

L∃N∀ on August 29, 2010 at 12:33am

"starches are actually carried in the blood to be digested in the brain (front)"

- That seemс impossible to me :) What am I missing?

    Yes, Germans, especially business folks, are tough company for a fruitarian. Students are much better! I spend so many hours of my life in the restaurants in the past, because the most gathering happening in them, constantly, - that can be torturous. I was drinking lots of water, fresh orange juice (when lucky) and wine above a plate of cut tomato or fruit at best (pretty often a baked potato with a bad salad) while other were changing dishes and cutting stakes. I developed a skill making my choices acceptable by most inquisitive personalities, grew up bored and tired, and, eventually, changed my lifestyle drastically.

B on August 29, 2010 at 4:48am

    I'm not making any categorical health claims, my choices are based on my personal preferences and how different foods make me feel.

    I'll eat dried fruit that I know isn't raw in small quantities as a last resort because it still is fruit and it tastes a lot better than cooked vegetables to me. If I eat too much of these dried fruits I get the same 'digestive leukocytosis' feeling which is why I avoid eating them. carbohydrate rich foods like fruit are a nutritional priority for me; for myself I can never see a logical reason to eat cooked vegetables unless I was starving or malnourished. they have no appeal to me in this state, I like 'em raw please and thanks.

    nuts digest better for me than millet. nuts as we buy in the grocery store are neither natural nor our most optimal foods but for me their nutrient profile is more ideal than grains (which really can't be eaten by us raw at all). I think they can be beneficial in appropriate amounts but some individuals do not digest nuts well at all, so you have to go with what works in each case.

    i'm certainly not saying that pasteurization is a good thing but I think it is a lesser evil to 'cooking' a food since it is such a brief high heat process, 15-30 seconds or so.

L∃N∀ on August 29, 2010 at 4:56am

Small quantity seems to be important in the issue. And time of cooking also... And personal preferences.

"their [nuts'] nutrient profile is more ideal than grains"

Absolutely agree. Thanks B.

Arrow on August 29, 2010 at 11:58am

    Potatoes give you throat pain because they are cooked...

Jaakko on August 28, 2010 at 11:46pm

Interesting discussion. I enjoy arguments from both sides and see where you're coming from. Maybe you have some more lessons to learn from eating cooked food, who knows.

    Personally I'd stay 100 % lfrv because I don't feel like having anything else. There is only one thing I "feel" like having and that's when my stress levels blast through the roof: the most sugary and ickly kind of chocolate I can lay my hands on. At times like this, I can do some serious damage to boxes of, say, Belgian chocolate seashells - I belive my record a day is somewhere between 700 and 900 grams (nearly 2 pounds). They no doubt contain some hugely valuable nutritional compounds my body needs. [sarcasm warning]

    In situation #1 I'd say no, for whatever reason I'm emotionally a very "blind" person and wouldn't probably even think she might be hurt. If I did, I don't think I'd be there in the first place. I suppose I would likely hurt her, but wouldn't realize it until a few days later. More likely than not I'd never end up in such a situation since I never have or go to any parties, including my own birthdays! :D

    I've never been in situation #2, I somehow always manage to keep some fruit at hand. When travelling I have been content with water only for extended periods of time. Meditation helps to make the time go by.

    My deepest motivation for being 100% lfrv? A damn good, juice-dripping bloody ripe mango! Ahh give me an island of them and maybe some ♥gold kiwis♥ and I'll eat myself into oblivion. Now that would be a way to leave the planet!...

L∃N∀ on August 29, 2010 at 12:01am

    Thank you Jaakko. Did you eat that chocolate sometimes? :) How did you hold yourself from doing it? I know, it is a little off-topic to ask that, but I am very interested in anti-craving methods to help people to free themselves from them.

"If I did, I don't think I'd be there in the first place. I suppose I would likely hurt her, but wouldn't realize it until a few days later."

:D What exactly do you mean by the first sentence? (Sorry, my English). Seriously, no parties?! :) The people weren't invited to that my party, btw, it was improvisational :)

    Management is everything! :) Sometimes I feel unhappy chewing on so-so fruit, knowing I could organize it better for myself. Yes, water is a big help, I can stay on it comfortable withing 100 hours if needed, but not always. If I do it under pressure I feel bad most times.

Jaakko on August 29, 2010 at 12:20am

    Chocolate does happen. I am extremely conscious of why I do it ("craving" it doesn't really describe it, I use it to numb out the world when there is too much stress and emotional pain for me to handle), what it does to me and where it leads but it still happens sometimes. I have at best been 100 % chocolate free for 12 months (2008-2009) when I was pretty much consistently 100 % lfrv (a few nuts & occasional bit of fish in between). I was quite suprised that I didn't feel any different when I went back to chocolate after that year when hit by some massive stress, it didn't feel "special". Numbness as usual.

    I keep myself from eating it by... minimizing stress. Unfortunately, I've been supremely woeful at it for the past 5-7 years and getting worse. Stuffin' myself with fruit doesn't really help, I can have 4000 kcals of fruits and still want some chocolate. What helps is to meditate and let the stress dissolve. Which is easier said than done when the kids are climbing over me, screaming and crying... Anyway, I'm on a learning path. I've "always" been superb at dealing with stress, namely walking away from it. But now that I live with it (my family), I can't - don't want to - so I need to learn to deal with it. I will be trying something new beginning next week and I know I will, eventually, learn. There simply isn't any other way. I just don't know how far down this path I need to go until I learn.

    Chocolate consumption is always relationship stress related in my life. Always. 100 %. Nothing else gets me there, no other stressor; in fact, I think I'm darn good at handling everything in my life, except relationship stress where I'm abysmal. Too bad I have loads of it. Come to think of it, this is probably life teaching me the one thing I'm stupendously inadequate at.

    No, no parties. (Heck, now that I say it, I realize yes we're going to a picnic next week! Oh well, I told them I'm a fruitarian and I've never met them anyway, it's always easy to just be the oblivious fruitarian, lol) I am incredibly anti-social and always feel hugely awkward at parties. A huge part of me would run to the nearest mountaintop and sit there alone until... whatever, if it wasn't for my family.

    I have always, with very short periods in between, preferred the written word to spoken. When I talk, I feel more or less totally cut away from the essence of my being - my mind, my brain, my soul. When I write, I am more often able to access it. Meditation is by far the best - now if only I could add some telepathy on top of that, I could just convey whatever it is I'm feeling without having to describe it in words, where I always feel lost and just shut up 'cos I haven't got a clue of how to describe it. I've even gone out of my way and learned to speak 4 languages fluently and a bunch of others, too, and still I can't do it! Darn. Got to look somewhere else.

    Anyway, there isn't anyone who'd turn up at my birthday party except my family (wife and kids) and they want me to be a fruitarian (I smell better, HA! :D). I suppose the more social you are, the clearer you need to be with your choices so people understand where you stand and respect you. I am most of the time able to just keep them to myself and if I feel like I can't, I'll just walk away.

L∃N∀ on August 29, 2010 at 1:04am

    I guess I must be happy I never liked chocolate that much Jaakko ;) , never understood what people finding in it. I could eat only the bitterest 70-100% versions.

    Minimizing stress! - Yes, that must be on of the most important things. Thank you for this idea!

"I'm darn good at handling everything in my life, except relationship stress where I'm abysmal."

- I can relate to it so much! Relationships are the most challenging thin in life for me.

    I think you might have been hooked on chocolate in one difficult moment when it actually helped you, and your mind tries to use this option again and again. You should "un-hoock" it somehow! :)

"A huge part of me would run to the nearest mountaintop and sit there alone until... whatever, if it wasn't for my family."

People can be so different. I was always "running" from my relatives in the past to friendships, social fun, and into solitude. You must have great luck with your family.

    Wow, the only thing that can hold me from talking is being shy about my accent! :) But normally I talk anyway and let others deal with the funny stuff I may say :D You know, when you speak the other language, in the process you discover more about the wonderful features of it and about your own mind - this is my biggest attraction in it. By writing you are allowed to pause or go back, and don't need to improvise all the time. Also, you learn to make sense much faster in speech, because you need to do it in your head prier or simultaneously to building the whole sentences and connecting them flexibly. It's a big fun.

    Yes, to be oblivious fruitarian is much easier, I learned it in a hard way.
    And hey, I can't walk away, because I dislike if people do that to me :)

Jaakko on August 29, 2010 at 2:22am

    I'd bet social stress is among one of the most health damaging factors out there. I guess it also explains in part why so many families split when they begin to grow...

    Chocolate is my painkiller. I can handle some of the pain at a time... or all of it if I'm alone... and sometimes all of it at once even if I'm not alone, for days - but then days turn into weeks and weeks into months and at some point, I can't take any more of it. Chocolate really doesn't help anymore. It used to, now I'm too conscious, too "clean", there is too much awareness. It still numbs though, and sometimes it feels like there simply isn't anything else. I know what I need, I just haven't - yet - figured out how to make it happen. Everyone I know who's "been there, done that" ended up splitting from their partners, beginning with Siddharta Gautama. Jesus was smart enough to avoid getting married in the first place... I've chosen to stay so I need to figure out how to deal with this and have my family around.

    I've had some good discussions, too, most of them in Russian. For whatever reason, it's like alcohol for me - makes me happy and lets me with ease penetrate much deeper into myself than any of the other languages I speak. I feel the most restricted in my native Finnish in fact...

    Back OT:
    Being oblivious is the easiest way for me and makes it easy to make fun of myself and my food. Like I'm thinking of bringing this huge pile of mangoes and melons to the picnic we're attending, and then having a laugh about it "Imagine I'm going to stuff half of that enormous pile of fruit down my throat now, haha now that sounds mad, doesn't it?!?!?" And then go and do just that :D

L∃N∀ on August 29, 2010 at 4:16am

    "...to figure out how to deal with this and have my family around."
    This is a noble goal Jaakko, best of luck to you!
    I am usually struggling not to break up a relationship because I cannot handle this specific stress.
    "makes me happy and lets me with ease penetrate much deeper into myself"
    That is very interesting, especially for me!

    :D That's the right way to do it!

Sultana on August 29, 2010 at 12:58am

    HI Lena,
    It sounds from your description that the nice little old vegan lady knew that you were eating a raw fruit-based diet. So, why then did she bring you a special dessert made with rice and sugar?

    Possibly it's because she doesn't understand what raw/fruitarian actually means. Really. When I was a mere vegetarian, I had many people bring me dishes that had meat in them and yet claim to be feeding me some kind of vegetarian delicacy!

    So, again and again, like all vegetarians, I had to explain to various folks and waiters and even the occasional nice little old lady, like my Aunt Pauline, that "No, those stuffed mushrooms aren't veg, they have CRAB in them" or "Wow. While I completely appreciate all the time it took to strain the CHICKEN meat out of the sauce, I'm still not going to eat it because it was made with meat" or, "Thanks, but I'll pass on the grilled SALMON, since, AS YOU KNOW, I don't eat dead animals or fish".

    I never once had a problem speaking up for my choices. Never. And I don't now. "No thanks, that "fruit salad" has a sour cream dressing on it, I'm happy with this plate of raw vegetables".

    If it had been me, I would have smiled really big, given that sweet little old lady a hug, and then gently explained what my diet really is, what it is that I do and do not eat. Then, whisked a few organic raw strawberries off of the top of my piece of "cake" and enjoyed them with relish.

    But, you're not me. I think that you handled it the way you were most comfortable, and only questioned everything after you got a harsh reaction from some other raw fooders.

    Which brings me, finally, to this: Why do you care what those "harsh" raw people said? Why do you want to know how all of us feel, unless, perhaps, you did wonder if there might have been another way to handle it that would have been acceptable?

    I think you are looking for permission to stand up for your raw choices, but then loading the question with details things like "very excited" "old lady" "keep being perfect" vs. "not offend a person", so you also are not sure that turning down an old lady doesn't make you a mean person.

    It's not mean to keep your dietary integrity. Neither are you a bad person for not choosing to eat 100% raw all the time. It's just about owning your choices. And anyone who is offended has chosen that too.

    There's always a best choice, and for me, sometimes the best choice is just to eat nothing. For you, at this point, it may have been eating that darn cake.

L∃N∀ on August 29, 2010 at 1:28am

    Exactly Sultana, she did not quite understood it, for some reason, people have difficulties to embrace the whole concept: "really, fruit only?", "you mean, everything raw? not just slightly cooked?"... Once I had being served a vegetable soup in a french restaurant with tiny pieces of meat at the bottom, after I explicitly ask for anything without animal products, and they had this one dish only (in reality none), and the guy was saying me it were not a big deal. Oh, it was for me, because I did ordered and already ate the half when I saw something suspicious!

"I would have smiled really big, given that sweet little old lady a hug, and then gently explained what my diet really is, what it is that I do and do not eat."

- great tactic! I should have done the same. But I felt partly ashamed to tell her that her vegan diet is not good enough for me. And you are right, I have questioned it only 2 years later in that conversation, and do until now, for many months.

    For some reason I do care what other people think, especially raw vegans about raw diet. I don't want that my knowledge about if is due to my "raw-impurity". I was told many times, that 100% for years is a totally different thing than 99%. And as soon as I have not been absolutely raw for the whole year even once, I think the may make a huge point.

    Yes, I am still not sure that to turn down a person like that worth it. She made so much effort just for me, and I appreciate it, because in my life it happened seldom, mostly from guys that wanted to develop some kind of close relationship with me, and only from few other people. I was not loved in my family, that's why I cherish such things maybe more than others.

"It's not mean to keep your dietary integrity..."

Thank you for this one Sultana, I'll keep it in mind.

Jaakko on August 29, 2010 at 1:46am

    A raw vegan acquintance once went to a restaurant with some colleagues, work related stuff. He does eat some cooked vegan food sometimes but never any meat. He asked not to have any meat and was expecting a salad. He was served... chicken! "Hey I said no meat!" "That's no meat sir, it's chicken." Go figure...

Heather M. on August 29, 2010 at 1:58am

    Hi Lena,
    I know the situation you are describing - I have been there many times. I remember, when I still had my stressful office job, we hired a new employee who sat in the cubicle right next to mine. She was this very nice, older Russian woman. She took her lunch break one day and came back with a pepperoni pizza, which, without asking, she divided up into separate pieces on paper plates.

    I was sitting at my computer working when all of a sudden a piece of pepperoni pizza was dangled in front of my face. Literally. I turn around and this sweet old Russian lady is smiling at me in the nicest way, holding out "my" piece of her pizza.

    This was such an interesting experiment because there were 3 people working in this room besides her (me, my boss - who doesn't eat sugar or processed foods and is a health nut, and a cooked vegan). The pizza went against the proclaimed diet of all 3 of us. The question was - would any of us actually eat it? It sure did smell and look delicious.

    My boss politely said no thank you and handed her plate back to the woman, making up some excuse about how she had already eaten lunch and wasn't hungry, but thank you so much, anyway.

    For me, it wasn't a question. At all. I knew if I ate a single bite of that pizza, I would feel quite ill. It's pretty easy for me to stay in line with this diet because if I know to eat a particular food would make me sick, I WILL NOT EAT IT, no matter whose feelings might be hurt.

    This may be insensitive of me, but I actually felt a little annoyed with this woman for not asking us first if we wanted her food. Of course she was just trying to be nice, sharing her pizza, but it was still presumptuous of her, and put the rest of us in an awkward spot of having to refuse her offering. If I were to eat the cake you described this woman to have made for you, I would have been really ill the next day, not being able to get out of bed. I haven't had refined white sugar in years and there's no way my digestive tract could handle it at this late date.

    Here's the trick - you can turn people down in situations like this without hurting their feelings. It all depends on the tone you use, and how you do it. You have to offer excessive thanks, in order to acknowledge the kindness in their gesture. If they see that you really do appreciate what they did, then whether or not you actually put it into your mouth becomes much less important. Give the person a warm hug and lots of smiles, while handing back the unwanted food item, or setting it aside on a table. Continue talking to them for a few minutes about whatever, and make sure the item gets eaten by someone who would actually enjoy it. You can completely demonstrate with your tone and body language that you deeply appreciate the person's kind gesture, and you won't offend them.

    The Russian woman in my office, thus, was not offended by my boss's refusal or mine.

    Now, what about the cooked vegan? She ate the pizza! That's right. She did. My boss and I were very surprised. Later, when the Russian woman was out of the room, we asked her about it. She shrugged her shoulders and said something like what you were saying when you accepted that birthday treat from the old lady. She said she didn't want to offend her.

    Now, in my opinion, I don't think that was it. I think she just really wanted to eat the pizza, because, like I said, it did look and smell inviting. Are you sure there wasn't some part of you that just wanted to enjoy that treat, even though it didn't meet your diet rules? That was my first thought when I read your post. When we have foods that we enjoyed in the past, like desserts and pizza, put in front our faces, I know it can be hard to resist.

L∃N∀ on August 29, 2010 at 2:30am

    You see Heather, pizza is a essentially different food for me, it contains an animal product, milk, after I learned how it produced I never had a slightest trouble refusing such food and in most cases to explain people in possibly neutral words what exactly a milk product is or at least with short: "I boycott the milk industry." No, that is not my problem at all.
    I am getting very sad all the time when I hear that vegans can eat it, knowing everything, That is what I truly unable to understand.

"If I were to eat the cake you described this woman to have made for you, I would have been really ill the next day, not being able to get out of bed. "

Don't you feel troubled by it?! By that that your organism in unable to deal with food plenty of other people have no problems what so ever? I would.

    That is a great advise on communication in a such delicate situation, thank you!

Heather M. on August 29, 2010 at 2:46am

    "Don't you feel troubled by it?! By that that your organism in unable to deal with food plenty of other people have no problems what so ever? I would."

    Not at all. I see it as progress. I remember reading some really interesting writing by a long time 100% LFRV woman - she had been 100% raw for ten years, and she took the time to detail her first four years and all her transition experiences. It was incredibly invaluable to read this, and was one of the first things that motivated me to go raw for real.

    After she had been 100% for about a year, she attended a Thanksgiving potluck and ate what she said was some complicated raw food. She was sick for a whole week. She wrote that even though this incident sucked, she knew it meant that she was making progress. Her digestive system was no longer able to handle that type of food.

    In fact, if I DID NOT get sick when eating something bad for me, like white sugar, I would worry, because it would mean my digestive tract probably still had a lot of healing to do. The farther you go down this path, the more sensitive your body becomes and the less you are able to handle toxins that other people wouldn't be bothered by at all.

    Doug Graham says something about this exact subject on one of his Perfect Health CDs:

    "The more health you build and the more health you accumulate, the stronger your health becomes, the more it can withstand, the more assault it can withstand. It's a double edged sword. If I go into a smoky room, I'm not going to get emphysema from one exposure to a smoky room.

    In other words, I've built up more health so that I'm not so much on the edge of a health breakdown, but at the same time I've also built up my awareness and my sensitivities so that when I walk into that smoky room I am incredibly aware of the fact that I don't belong there.

    As opposed to other people who have so deteriorated or allowed their health to deteriorate to such a degree that they don't get the same feedback from their own nervous system telling them that perhaps the music is too loud or the coffee is too strong or they shouldn't be drinking coffee at all, or that smell is acrid I shouldn't be around it.

    So many different exposures in life that people have become dulled to, lowering their own vitality and their own awareness level to such a degree that they don't even respond in a way that tells them this is an unhealthy place.

    I relate my health in very many ways to those of the animals. I look at a bird and if a bird is comfortable it stays right where it is. Anything changes in the awareness level of that bird that makes it feel even slightly uncomfortable, it moves away. It's not a judgmental thing. It doesn't mutter under its breath. There's no success or failure even thought about. The bird just moves.

    When I find myself in unhealthy situations I feel blessed that I've raised my awareness level to the point where I know it's time to move."

L∃N∀ on August 29, 2010 at 3:55am

    "I see it as progress." - I heard this point of view many times, and I disagree with it for the most part. Progress or not, in most cases it is an indication that your organism is missing something or in a bad unadapted condition overall.

"Her digestive system was no longer able to handle that type of food."

Heather, this is scary! I do not believe it should be this way! I am almost sure her food was either not fresh and contaminated, or she had some kind of allergic reaction! Recently in southern California I bought a raw dish made out of soaked lentils with an interesting lemon-almond "sauce", and it felt totally fine.

"the more sensitive your body becomes and the less you are able to handle toxins that other people wouldn't be bothered by at all."

I strongly disagree.
    I totally agree with Graham's words, I hear from you for the first time, thank you for that:

"I've also built up my awareness and my sensitivities..."

- exactly! I can deal with toxins much better now physically, the process is just more fast and noticeable.

"allowed their health to deteriorate to such a degree that they don't get the same feedback from their own nervous system"

- yes! Sure, but it does not mean that you cannot handle toxins!

    In the first years I had some adaptation difficulties, maybe some short detoxification episodes, but nothing like that person, and I don't wish it to myself at all!

    The example with birds is marvelous, BTW!

Heather M. on August 29, 2010 at 4:22am

    It sounds a lot from your posts (I could be wrong here) that you have never been completely 100% LFRV for any period of time, that you still have occasional indulgences in cooked vegan items, and complicated gourmet raw foods, thus these things are still in your system and your digestive tract can still handle them. I would bet if you were to go without them, 100% LFRV, for a while, they would make you feel unwell to eat them.

    If I ate steamed potatoes or some steamed fish, I would not become sick, I would just feel blah, and a lack of energy, and that's because I have eaten them in the last few months, thus my digestive tract wouldn't go haywire and treat them like completely foreign toxins. I haven't eaten refined sugar in over two years, so if I were to eat some, I would most definitely feel awful the next day, nor would I enjoy that wired sugar-high feeling while eating it.

    It's the same as teenagers trying booze or smoking a cigarette for the first time - their systems completely go haywire and the kid feels quite ill. I've found that following this diet has return my digestive system and nervous system to the state of being like a kid again. Like Graham says, this is a double-edged sword.

    A guy posted here recently about this subject. It was titled "LFRV and Alcohol." He said that he used to be one of those guys who needed eight to ten drinks to get drunk, but after a recent night with friends when he was pressured to drink two margaritas, he was amazed that he got extremely intoxicated from just those two drinks. His body is changing and can no longer tolerate the large amounts of booze he used to consume. If he were to revert to his old ways for a night and consume 8 to 10 drinks, he would no doubt have been sick as a dog.

    I believe that if you don't feel gross after eating unhealthy food or drink, then your digestive tract is still in a state of desensitization and needs to heal itself. This is just my personal opinion, though, based on my own experiences.

    I also know that I can't eat at those raw gourmet restaurants anymore because the food gives me terrible diarrhea. My body definitely says NO WAY SISTER!

    I would be curious to hear from others on this subject, particularly people who have done 100% LFRV for some time...

L∃N∀ on August 29, 2010 at 4:42am

    Dear Heather, I went 100% raw fresh fruit for many months many times, I can't even count. The recent "clean" periods you can see listed here, in Mistakes.

    I have not eaten any flesh for 17 years. For the same period of time I strongly avoid refined sugar, salt, fats, wheat, yeast, and many other things. Please, understand it does mean something for ones body. I am not enjoying that stuff and very seldom feel attracted to it. Since I know what they do to cows, I have a repulsion towards milk.
    Alcohol is a different thing, I know that effect, his body just reacted promptly.

    I helped myself to "desensitize" my digestive track in the first years with various procedures from yoga, liver cleansings, fasts, etc. I was very serious about it and read tons of literature on the subject.

    Yes, I am very interested to hear from others too.

Eatraw on August 29, 2010 at 12:13pm

    Your link says you sometimes eat as little as 3-5 apples a day?! 3kg's of fruit on bigger days is still a tiny amount. Would be impossible for me to be totally raw eating that little. Good idea to listen to the people actually doing it.

L∃N∀ on September 1, 2010 at 3:23am

    Sorry, Eatraw, I missed your comment and the topic was closed for some reason. I guess, after this I need to close it again.
    3-5 apples: this happens extremely seldom, these days I consider as half-fasting or cleansing days, and I do so only when I strongly feel like it or in an unusual situation, where I fail provide for myself. On biggest days I can eat 5-6 kg.

    As I figured a couples of days ago, to follow the recommendation of this site ~2500 cal (2300-300) I would need to spend on average ~$2160 on organic juicy fruits and berries, which I consume now in various areas I live and visit. It is too much for me now, even if I could organize it and eat all of the fruit pulp of the amount I posted earlier. Looks like I am not ready.
    I am not going to elaborate on this here. Please Eatraw, I already understand your point of view, don't leave any recommendation to me any more on other threads either, otherwise I must be impolite and leave them without respond. Surely, I am always open for personal communication. Thank you.

Fruity Jules on August 29, 2010 at 1:37am

    This is a great discussion!

    #1: I always say that I am outwardly sweet, but inwardly fierce. I am not going to harm myself just to please someone else. When people give me something they intend to be kind and helpful, I return the kindness, but I won't eat something that is not good quality fruit! I no longer mind saying something that may make a person uncomfortable, if I am speaking truthfully and with kindness, because becoming uncomfortable is the first step toward change, and I would like to help peeps improve their health and well-being while loving and respecting all life. I don't think it is helpful for anyone for me to compromise myself. I want to be a good example of what is possible. : )

    #2: Animals in Nature make finding their appropriate food a priority, and so do I! I make sure to always have what I need to the best of my ability. And we as humans have it so easy! We can go to a farmer's market where there is tons of fresh fruit displayed for our choosing. I think it is easier to be 100% than to dabble in The Other. The Other is harmful, addictive, and doesn't even taste good to me. Eating cooked and processed food makes me feel sick . . . nauseated and in pain, so it is a natural deterrent!

    Beware the addictive mind . . . it will do all kind of tricks to justify eating whatever. : )

    ♥

L∃N∀ on August 29, 2010 at 2:48am

    Hey Julie, thanks, "fierce" is funny, especially the inside-outside contrast :D, maybe I need to be more like that too :)

    I know that animals actually disregard their nutritional needs in some cases, especially in mating and helping others to survive. I am so happy for you that you are such a great manager of your environment! Yes, cooked food is not comparable to delicious fruit, and salty and sweetens food I hardly ever ate in 17 years, so it taste artificial to me, and the taste is very simplistic, far from symphony of flavor in fruit.

"Eating cooked and processed food makes me feel sick . . . nauseated and in pain"

That worries me!

    Yes, I know, I was severely addicted to caffeine, it took years to never return back, and my mind was creating theories one after another to justify having the drink (like "human creativity developed by caffeine consume" or "my mental productivity depends on it").

cbs on August 29, 2010 at 2:24am

    1) I wouldnt eat it because I'm celiac and that would kill me. If I could eat it with little effects, I would eat a small piece. I will eat whatever people offer me if its out of their heart and doesnt harm me. I am also limited financially and severely underweight so it would be dumb of me to do so. I think some people eat based on being pure which is not my goal. Health and happiness are my goal and I would get very sick on that. If they were my friends they would want the best for me so they would understand. That WOULD make me sick though in all honesty.

    2) Steamed veggies would be fine for me. I have eaten more then once trail mix. I cant starve myself at this time/fast. The health effects of me not eating now is worse then a little tiredness. Even yams have been OK but might be causing too much congestion now which is making me sick. Fatty/heavily seasoned cooked foods, I've learned my lesson, cant do. I would just have to wait til tomorrow and eat more.

    My motivation for raw and health and happiness. Not to be more "pure." I follow what my body is telling me to do first. Fruit makes me feel best. I also want to do the least harm. So I eat what gives me the most health/happiness and sure what works for me now probably wont be the same in a year as right now as I have digestive issues. I am more interested in progression to health. I also dont have these food addictions that others have so one bite doesnt send me into the junk food bin. I'm too underweight now to be skipping meals.

L∃N∀ on August 29, 2010 at 3:03am

    This is the thing with me Cbs, "it just made me tired, not optimal". Not even really tired, just not entirely "perfect". And practically, more optimal, because I thing emotional pressure would put me more out ob balance that a little graines in that pie. I need to check what "celiac" means.

    I don't eat fatty foods either, because I can fairly say I feel bad after it, immediately or after a while. In this case I just say as it is, or maximally test it only.

    Health and happiness are the great motivations, but aren't we feel happy by making others happy sometimes? I am kind of tired to be happy, I just want to have clarity and content.

    "I am in no competition" - great words! I totally with you on it.
    "one bite doesnt send me into the junk food bin." - I was thinking the same for me, but sometimes I doubt it.

Ems on August 29, 2010 at 4:12am

    I personally would think its like a once a year thing and that lady put so much effort in one little slice of cake wont hurt - and she did make is as humanly vegan as she possibly could, bless her soul. in the grand scheme of things is it really a problem as long as your back with the raw as soon as.
Yesterday - i ate a slice of my daughters yummy homemade veggie pizza, i paid for it because the whole night i had the worst migraine ever - and feel dreadful today. So i learned my lesson. Was keen to get back into my raw today - amazing how one little slice of pizza can make you feel so bad and guilty
2. The way i see it - going from 100percent SAD to 100percent RAW .... its logical that we are all going to have a little slip every now and again. I try to keep as much fresh raw in the fridge as poss because its when i havent planned 2moros food the day before that im likely to slip up.... ;-)) x

L∃N∀ on August 29, 2010 at 4:48am

    Thank you Ems, I am really glad to hear your opinion.

    I think I should stop with the "slips" :) I always feel better if I keep enough fruit for 1-3 days ahead, it gives me psychological comfort! It is not always possible to have, especially after long trips.

Yuliya Yakhontova on August 29, 2010 at 4:40am

1) All my friends are well aware and respectful of my diet and would never ask me to eat anything cooked or even high fat raw.

    2) I always make sure that there is some food in the house (fruit) and if there is none than on my long trip I will surely get some and bring home.

    If I did eat anything cooked or high fat raw for whatever reason - I would have consequences of one type or another depending on the food. It is not about being perfect anymore - it's just about feeling good on every day basis.

L∃N∀ on August 29, 2010 at 4:50am

    Good for you, Yuliya! :)