I'd like to provid esome interesting information first:

Water Myths

Dr. Stanley Goldfarb, a kidney expert at the University of Pennsylvania, after reviewing the scientific literature on the health effects of drinking lots of water:

"In fact, drinking large amounts of water surprisingly tends to reduce the kidney's ability to function as a filter. It's a subtle decline, but definite. The kidneys clear toxins. This is what the kidneys do. They do it very effectively. And they do it independently of how much water you take in. When you take in a lot of water, all you do is put out more urine but not more toxins in the urine.
... Our bottom line was that there was no real good science - or much science at all - behind these claims, that they represent probably folklore.
A little mild dehydration for the most part is OK, and a little mild water excess for the most part is OK. It's the extremes that one needs to avoid."

No studies showed any benefit to skin tone as a result of increased water intake. Evidence that drinking water wards off headaches is lacking. As far as lots of water serving to limit appetite, there was no consistent evidence. Drinking large amounts of water cannot be recommended as a prevention of stroke, unless you also deal with the well-defined risk factors such as smoking, hypertension, high blood lipids, diabetes, and obesity. Drinking a few extra glasses of water can be harmful if it substitutes for really effective, established measures.

Dehydration sets in when a person has lost 2 % of the body weight. So for a 100-pound woman, this means losing 2 pounds of water (~1 liter).

Individuals in hot, dry climates have increased need for water. Marathon runners, bikers and hikers all need to recognize the signs of dehydration. The American College of Sports Medicine recommends that athletes drink 16 ounces ( 473 ml - less than half liter) of fluids a couple of hours before starting sports practice.

 This conversation started on the wall of the Fruitarian page on facebook: http://www.facebook.com/pages/Fruitarian/189066052518 and continued on 30bad (the discussion had been deleted later, see 30BaD topic for reasons).

I am under the name "Fruitarian" here (facebook named me so because I created the page :) and as L∃N∀ later on.

Water in fruit

On Fruitarian page

Jane E Marchant 

Does anyone, especially Lena have some solid research on eating fruit to get your water versus drinking water. I have read the Bragg book on water (pro-drinking), but a book called "Health Revolution" says that water is best obtained from fruit. I want to know what is ideal, not most convenient. Thank you.

Fruitarian

Results of my personal research (which is not deep enough though) that I could summarize as: you should drink as minimum 1.5 liter of water a day regardless what you eat, are quite opposite to my own experience. I can go for weeks without drinking any water (I do not drink anything else, no other drinks) and feel fresh and wonderful even in a very warm weather. It does not effect my training, even when I run ~10 km (6 mile) or more without haven had anything prior to the exercise. It even feels unpleasant to drink some water after a long period for the first time.

Some of my friends, that are into 811 diet, are strongly opposed to this. But I listen carefully to my body, and I do believe that the best water is in fruit - naturally filtered, and full of nutrients. More than that, I am against the common differentiation between food and water, I think it is applicable only to modified foods with lots of addings (like spices, salt, etc.) There is a data that we cannot define clearly thirst from hunger, and it causes many people to eat when they actually need fluid. I think, it may have something to do with natural craving for ONE source of water and food - exactly what juicy fruits are.

It seems to me irresponsible to advise to drink lots of fluids to a fruitarian. On some days I eat, for example, 6 pound of watermelon and nothing else, it would be stupid to make myself drink few glasses of water on top of that without having any thirst, wouldn't it?

There was a tendency in dietology a couple of years ago to advise drinking 8 glasses of water a day! Only later it was criticized heavily. So, those people who followed the advise must had put their organs to overwork for nothing.

We should also remember, that water can have high in minerals, which are in the "inactive" form and can even damage our body.

Few months ago I got in touch with many mono-raw vegans, many of them eat lots of fruit and drink water rather seldom.
As for me, I regularly (almost every day) practice no drinking or eating till 1-2 p.m. and feel very good.

Jane E Marchant 

Thank you so much for your thorough and long reply. I highly regard and appreciate it.
I have been getting a sore stomach from drinking water for about two years now: even on an empty stomach, in the daytime. It caused me to wonder.

Fruitarian

Glad if my experience could be a piece of a bigger picture on the subject for you Jane.
Yes, sometimes I had similar feelings. As a fruitarian one develops higher than normal sensitivity...

Jane E Marchant 

I am sensitive to everything except juicy fruit. Also I have multiple (hundreds of) chemical intolerances. btw, do you eat bananas and figs, they are flowers not fruits?

Fruitarian 

That's interesting, I wish I had something like that to have a reason to reject some vegan food tasting :)
They are flowers botanically? I eat both very seldom.

Jane E Marchant 

"The fig is commonly thought of as fruit, but it is properly the flower of the fig tree. It is in fact a false fruit or multiple fruit, in which the flowers and seeds grow together to form a single mass."

I was wrong about the bananas though: they are fruits. The original bananas contained large seeds (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Inside_a_wild-type_banana.jpg), that have been bred to be tiny now. Sorry about that.

Fruitarian 

That's interesting - next time I see figs I look much closer :)
Hm, I am not buying cut flowers for decoration, you know, and nobody who knows me ever give me flowers, knowing my views - but I ate figs. I think the main thing here, that the fig tree produced the figs to be eaten (my fruitarianism comes from mind :)

Jane E Marchant 

Aren't (reproductive) seeds produced after pollination then fertilisation? Botanically fruit is produced from parts of a fertilised flower. Figs are pollinated by wasps. I have yet to see a wasp-fertilised fig in shops. But I am now totally with you on not buying cut flowers! We need our flowers to come to fruition, so to speak!

Fruitarian

Hm, I saw a big documentary on fig tree exclusively, but it was too log ago to remember such details, I do remember that the tree was profiting from animals using its fruit/flowers. I just checked this out: crfg.org/pubs/ff/fig.html a little, and still think spreading of pollinated seeds is possible, they are in the "fruit". I'll look into it deeper some other time.
Each time I feel sad to look at those flowers in WholeFoods... I think it is sad to look on them dying slowly on your eyes at home.

Alchemilla RawVegan

Water is inorganic. We need to drink it from fruits. Water in its inorganic state is literally food for trees...

Jane E Marchant 

Wow! Great info Alchemilla! I was suspecting this, you said it so good.

Fruitarian

Alchemilla, water is by definition inorganic substance, so please explain what do you mean by that. Light is also a food for trees, it does not mean though we do not need it (we definitely do, beginning with vitamin D synthesis).

Jane E Marchant 

Perhaps inorganic as in not very assimilable on it's own by the human body? I think we still need water, but through the fruit?

Alchemilla RawVegan 

@ Fruitarian: We need Sunlight to live but we do not eat directly the Sun. What we get is filtered sunlight. The same happen to water. We need water but better get it filtered through the labor of trees. Trees have the incredibile power to give life to inorganic stuff. We need to eat Life if we want to live. 

I do not recall last time I drank a glass of water. Usually it happens in the summer when I'm not hungry and dont feel like eating a fruit, but it's very rare u know... 

Try this: at morning, eat first of all an apple. Wait some time and then drink a glass of water. Tell me how u feel, tell me if u feel water like floating into ur guts. 

Fruit come with water, it is a complete food by definition. U do not need anything else. 

Lena, i read that sometimes u eat some cooked food also: I think u still feel the need to drink water cos your body goes into acid. U are not the first fruitarian/raw foodist that sometimes eat cooked vegan and u know, I still can't understand how u dont feel bad or disgusted by such dead stuff... I cannot even THINK to eat a steamed veggie or pasta or...anything else that's not fruit! Either raw or cooked. I'm 8 months fruitarian and have been 1y and half high raw.
 

Do u know about the perils of cooked food? U put ur body in serious danger everytime u ingest cooked food.

Fruitarian

@Alchemilla:
"We need water but better get it filtered through the labor of trees.

- I agree with each word of it!
"Usually it happens in the summer when I'm not hungry and dont feel like eating a fruit"

- the same for me, but in all seasons :)

Oh yes Alchemilla, each time I taste cooked vegan stuff or raw with spices I have immediate wish of water!

Yes, it is a social thing... I know no raw vegans (some are soon to be) nor fruitarians in real life, and very very few vegans... I refuse totally - even for testing - all non-vegan food (6 years ago I still have not rejected cheese completely, and I feel awful about that but can not change the past).

Good for you Tanya! 8 month is a good term - I wish you total success in a long run.
~~~

As for me I am not sure yet I am going to refuse to taste a spoon or piece of something vegan if my friends offer me too. There is some greater social good I still see in sharing vegan food especially with non-vegans.

Another example: two weeks ago I was sitting next to a non-vegan friend of mine while she was preparing root vegetables for a soup and when she was finished, there were leaves left from the roots to throw away - I ate some of them. It is not fruitarian, and I don't buy non-fruit vegetables nor sprout seeds, but in that moment it felt right. I am going to follow the moral low in me, maybe it is going to change one day.

To be truthful I need to add that sometimes I do that for emotional reasons only:

1. because it seems to me to be the easiest way to disillusion myself about taste of an attractive type of food, by tasting I realize that the real non-fruit dish is not that delicious at all;
2. to understand again, that it influence my body and mind in a way I don't want too.

Jane E Marchant

I think the state of our current health plays a big role. The moment I eat non-fresh-fruit I get very sick and incapacitated.

Alchemilla RawVegan 

We need to detox also from non fruitarian friends. This is not being "racist" but it's important to stay with other fruitarian so that we can renforce our natural tendencies. If we date, meet only with cooked-vegan and we are the only fruitarian, I'm afraid sooner or later we will go slowly back to cooked vegan or raw vegan (most likely).. 

We have surrounded by many poisons, in all area of our life. Gotta pay very much attention to any single thing we do. Even the hardest stone can be eroded by a constant drop of water with time.

Fruitarian

That's true, Jane, and I felt the same many times when I ate such food. I feel the best - wonderful - on fruit and nothing else, I proved it to myself by many experiments over the years (some of them were foolish :).

Jane and Alchemilla (Tanya), I copied our conversation in a blog and we already have new conversational partners

I know Tanya has profile there, but if, Jane, you don't have or don't want to create one, we can continuer here, just checking on other fruitarians' opinions. BTW, there (in the end of the blog article) you can find my report on all bad things I did in my diet recently. And naturally, all visitors of our page are invited as well.

Jane E Marchant

Alchemilla. Your words are like medicine to my soul. I so understand about detoxing from non-fruitarian friends, and the other things you said. We need every drop of support we can: it's a narrow enough path as it is!

Lena. Thank you very much for going to the effort to pasting this thread into a blog post. I joined 30bananas a few days ago as "Jane". See you on there!

Fruitarian

Alchemilla, somehow I missed your comment! I must agree with you. People we meet influence us unconsciously, even if we take very good care about clarity and freedom in our minds. I notice it way too often. It is marvelous to be in touch with fruitarians! :)

PS (by Lena, Fruitarian): see Mistakes

Comments on 30bad

Rock

Your reasoning sounds solid to me, though things may change when at 10,000 ft and in dry, desert conditions. I guess that then you would choose to drink the amount of water it takes to maintain health. Since you do not drink water, you would be listening to your body...

L∃N∀

No doubt Rock!
I drink water each time I have a slightest wish to and in a desert I'd certainly feel thirst.

Fruity Jules

Dear Lena. . .

I LOVE your post. ♥ Thank you for sharing this wonderful exchange. It gives me such a good feeling to read something that resonates with me so completely. It seems that most people are not thinking this way.

I am in agreement with you about the living water in fruit being the only type of water we need. I think of juicy fruits like mother's milk for babies. . . .providing everything we need in one delicious package

Water that comes in a plastic bottle is very suspect to me. We don't really even know what it is or what's in it! I suppose it is good for diluting poisons in people that eat junk food.

I am perfectly content eating juicy fruits and no water. If I feel more "thirsty" I make sure to get water-rich fruits like oranges and melons. If I am more "hungry" I eat denser fruits with more sugar like bananas or dates. But mostly I prefer the juicy fruits.

I feel that the water in fruits is living and is naturally filtered/distilled in Nature.

Thank you so much for this post. It has made my day! I love what you said about juicy fruit being the ONE source for water and food. Beautiful! ♥

L∃N∀

Thank you Jules, I am very touched by your respond.

I have experimented with drinking water for many years. 6 years as minimum I drunk only distilled water (made by steaming, I even had my own distiller). I agree with you on bottled water: most of the times it has very strange aftertaste. Nowadays I prefer watermelons. I eat them every day for the second month :)

I am very surprised that many raw vegans use salt. In times I ate something with salt I felt a distortion of circulation of fluids in my body, heaviness, strong thirst and feeling of been "broken" (tiredness) next day.

Are you able to get fresh dates? I never tried those, only dried, and later I learned that they are not sun dried in most of cases, so I haven't eaten them for many years.

So happy to meet another fruitarian!

Freelee

Hey Lena, thanks for posting, very interesting...
I'm just a bit confused, so the person who is referring to themselves as a "fruitarian" still eats cooked food but doesn't drink water is that correct nor do they recommend others drink water? I get lost easy :)

Chimps and other animals in nature regularly drink water from streams and rain water caught in large leaves, just can't see why we would be any different from our animal friends who live closest to nature?

 L∃N∀

Hi Freelee, thanks for reading!
This terrible person, still eating cooked food and avoiding giving drinking water recommendations for fruitarians, is me :) - the explanation for that is in the beginning.

I have nothing against learning from other animals to optimize my behavior, but chimps sometimes eat insects and even other small animals time to time, and I am not going to follow them on that.

As I said, I listen to my body, I drink water every time I have a slightest wish to, but I do not push myself. If I eat nothing but juicy fruit (enough) for at least a week, or even one or two days only watermelons, for example, my thirst drops down and it would be foolish of me, in my opinion, not to act accordingly. Don't you trust your thirst being on natural food with no supplements?

I was listening to nearly all lectures of Graham I could find in internet and I am aware about his position on water-drinking, and I obviously read a lot of articles on the subject - but I was not convinced, and there are other opinions, offered from people that gave me also an insight into anatomy (kidneys, lymph, blood) and biochemistry of the process and sounded convincing to me at that time (I kept no references, because I was not planning on sharing my experience in that time) - they think, concentrated urine is OK and overusing kidneys regularly is not efficient in a long run.

More than that, if one must drink much water, one must drink in many times a day, right? What about digestive juices and optimal conditions, formed in various sections of the intestines, - drinking water dilutes or washes all away into lower parts of the digestive system. The kidneys must perform extra work to filter all out again. And so on. I studied (myself) some other systems of nutrition (yoga, taoist, etc.) and count their recommendations too.

I still don't see any reason, WHY person needs to urinate THAT often, and it MUST be like water (very low concentration of urine) - maybe you can tell me that in short? Is there a scientific or just well logically build article on the subject you could recommend?

Maria K

I had headaches every time I drank bottled water since I had gone raw. And I dont drink any water when I dont feel thirsty. I also think that the water in fruit is the healthiest one. Moreover, I dont trust the tap water (with its additives like fluoride...).

L∃N∀

Thank you for the reading and commenting, Maria. I think it is reasonable approach. I don't trust not only tap water, but also most affordable filters on the market - I tried many of them, and the water taste strange if not right from the beginning of using them, then very soon. It does not depend on the plastic container, I kept water also in glass, and had no improvement.

Many years ago I was using water "made" of half frozen ice (the method supposedly allowed to get clean water in ice and the rest stayed in other half of it, which one should not use), in that time I was inexperienced but could feel that something is not quite right with it.

Fruity Jules

Hi again, Lena. . .

I'm still with you and your excellent reasoning! I like what you said about imitating chimps. Ha!

Recently I heard an interview with a 91-year-old woman who is a yoga teacher and ballroom dancer. She said that she felt that people were wearing out their bodies and their organs prematurely by eating too much and also drinking too much water. She said all the excessive water drinking was "washing away" vital nutrients that the body needs and overworking various organs, including the kidneys.

Yes, I think about the Goldilocks Principle . . . there is some amount of everything that is just right. I'm sure there IS such a thing as too much water. In fact, people have been known to die from too much water.

Here's a blog I wrote last year about drinking water: http://myfruitarianlife.blogspot.com/2009/09/ubiquitous-water-bottl..

Like you, I like to read and learn from other peoples' thoughts and experiences, but I learn best and clearest from my own experiences. What else do we have to go on?

Thank you for your friendship. ♥

  L∃N∀

Glad to hear that Jules :)

This dancing yoga teacher said something very important for me. I also think that too much is TOO much, the best is to have enough - not more, not less - in any given period.

Our body is way to complex system for us to understand rationally yet, despite all our scientific effort, which is unfortunately not that big or often bias in nutrition. Remember those not yet understood kinds of intestine flora, and in general the fact that there are much smaller representation of cells with human genome than other organisms in our body? But even scientist tend to agree that too much food or water is not good at all. Therefore I think we should listen carefully what our senses, intuition and common sense (I mean it in a good way :) say us, because they communicate to our operative mind a valuable insider information about our present condition and priorities.

I'll read your article about water later Jules, maybe tomorrow. BTW, yesterday I quote you to one of my friends (a serious swimmer and a multiple marathon runner, vegan), it was about athletes' way to deal with food from your blog, he agreed :)

L∃N∀

Hey Jane, so glad you are here!
Oh my, you must be really careful with water! I guess you should love watermelons - I certainly do (enjoying them every day now). But if I eat only or mainly apples the whole day I feel content too, without water.

I do not eat leafy greens either, I only taste them sometimes. Last week I had a leaf of basil- and didn't have a wish for more. I could conciser them as medicine in case I need it.

PS: Jules, your post about water is brief and convincing!

Freelee

Hey Lena, I'm not saying you're terrible! I don't care if you still eat a little cooked food at all :) though you must agree that this will impact your hydration levels as cooked food isn't food that we can process without zapping considerable amounts of water from our bodies to get the job down. I must say I do actually think it's important to be practising fruitarianism fully before making recommendations? I am interested in your experience though, thanks for sharing.

Yes chimps do sometimes eat insects and other small animals including each other but I agree with you that learning from other animals to optimise our behaviour can be helpful, so to me this means following the best behaviour that is demonstrated and leaving the rest, in this case for me its drinking water. If chimps are in abundant living conditions (which they're mostly not) they rarely choose insects and animals for food over sweet fruits. I'm still tryiing to think of one large animal in nature that doesn't drink water and these animals are living in an environment without pollution, indoor heating/cooling, clothing, airborne chemicals, electricity, indoor sleeping, dry air etc....

I didn't realise you drank some water, I was under the impression it was none at all like Fruity Jules, this could be my bad. Yes I trust my intincts, which I believe are quite sharp after nearly 2.5 years of 100% LFRV, 98% of that being fruit the whole time averaging about 3litres of water a day and feeling fantastic for the most part! I don't believe water is a supplement but a necessity like food but I am open to be convinced otherwise. I have tried the "no water" approach but my urine became tinged of colour, my athletic performance took a nose dive, my mental state became fragile and my immune system became weak and vulnerable...Every function of the body is pegged to the flow of water.

Yes it would be great if you could provide me with some quality peer reviewed studies to say that concentrated urine is ok, it's interesting because world renowned water expert Dr F. Batmanghelidj gives the following advice which has been invaluable in mine and many others experience...

"If you are thirsty, it means your cells are already dehydrated. A dry mouth should be regarded as the last outward sign of dehydration. That’s because thirst does not develop until body fluids are depleted well bellow levels required for optimal functioning.

Monitor your urine to make sure you are not dehydrated:

A hydrated body produces clear, colorless urine.
A somewhat dehydrated body produces yellow urine.
A severely dehydrated body produces orange or dark-colored urine.

The effects of even mild dehydration include decreased coordination, fatigue, dry skin, decreased urine output, dry mucous membranes in the mouth and nose, blood pressure changes and impairment of judgment. Stress, headache, back pain, allergies, asthma, high blood pressure and many degenerative health problems are the result of UCD (Unintentional Chronic Dehydration)." Per day :
Apparently the average person loses about 3- 4 liters (about 10-15 cups) of fluid a day in sweat, urine, exhaled air and bowel movement just through daily living. A further 1-2 liters of water is lost just from breathing and the evaporation of sweat from the skin accounts for 90% of our cooling ability.
Lena Quote:
"More than that, if one must drink much water, one must drink in many times a day, right? What about digestive juices and optimal conditions, formed in various sections of the intestines, - drinking water dilutes or washes all away into lower parts of the digestive system.

- As far as diluting digestive juices goes It's important not to drink too close to eating and not immediately after.

drinking water dilutes or washes all away into lower parts of the digestive system. 

Not 100% sure what you mean here but it would be great if you provide me with some medical research that concludes this because I'm not aware of this being the case at all.

When it comes to the digestive system - the mechanism of ulcer formation is particularly interesting. We have a mucous layer that protects the  stomach from hydrochloric acid, which is 98% water. Apparently within this mucous material, sodium bicarbonate neutralizes the acid before it reaches the stomach wall. But when our body has too little water, this mucous barrier sloughs off, which leaves the stomach acid to eat away at our stomach cells. Luckily when water is added, it immediately goes into the stomach, restoring the mucous membranes.

Lena Quote:
"I still don't see any reason, WHY person needs to urinate THAT often, and it MUST be like water (very low concentration of urine) - maybe you can tell me that in short?

To dilute the pollution formed by metabolic processes, pee colour indication is a signal to us meaning pollution levels are reaching less than optimal levels and my understanding is that we need to dilute this pollution with water. Every time my pee is clear I feel the best always.

Lena:
Is there a scientific or just well logically build article on the subject you could recommend? 

Here are some downloadable documents about water and dehydration... http://www.watercure.com/scientific.html

Can I ask the same from you? I am open to change but I do like to see some convincing evidence :)

Thanks Lena
Lovefreelee X

P.S - Hey beautiful fruit jules! Have you drunk any water over the past 3 years? Also I am really genuinely interested in your results, can you give us some objective measurements as to the intensity of your playtime/runs? This will just help me form a clearer picture...
Thanks lovely X

L∃N∀

Freelee, thank you for the substantial respond and not caring for food I eat ;) It was a joke with "terrible".

Who is making recommendations? Does my phrase "It seems to me irresponsible to advise to drink lots of fluids to a fruitarian" made you think so?

"I must say I do actually think it's important to be practising fruitarianism fully before making recommendations?"

- is a bit too harsh in this case I dare say. And you are welcome :)

We all here hopefully know, that chimps choose animal food over fruit rarely. I was not telling it is good not to drink water at all, and the fact that animals drink water does not mean they drink it every day the certain amount in every environmental condition.

Freelee, I am in no way questioning your experience or believes. I saw a video with you just recently, and you look like you do everything absolutely right. Please tell me though, for how long did you eat only juicy fruit before you started your no-water experiment (THAT one I wouldn't recommend!) and how long did it last?

Thank you for the Batmanghelidj citation. Nothing new for me there, I only do not see any references to experiments and studies on fruitarians or raw vegans (on no-any-supplements diet). To say "A hydrated body produces clear, colorless urine" is easy, but I would like to know why.

And by the way, my mouth feels not dry on just juicy fruit, I control it permanently because I know which role saliva plays for the health of teeth. I don't have dry skin, but I had it when I drunk LOTS of water. I don't have headaches, back pains, allergies, asthma, high blood pressure.

"As far as diluting digestive juices goes It's important not to drink too close to eating and not immediately after."

Absolutely true, but than one should wait hours, at least after.
"I'm not aware of this being the case at all"

I heard this concern over and over. "Apparently within this mucous material, sodium bicarbonate neutralizes the acid before it reaches the stomach wall. But when our body has too little water, this mucous barrier sloughs off, which leaves the stomach acid to eat away at our stomach cells."

The acidity situation in stomach by processing raw fruit is very different from most other cases. I believe it is not very relevant here. The idea of drinking water constantly only to flash acids away sounds strange to me. We just done saying that it is not preferable to drink after food intake.
"To dilute the pollution formed by metabolic processes, pee colour indication is a signal to us meaning pollution levels are reaching less than optimal levels and my understanding is that we need to dilute this pollution with water."

Less than optimal levels? You think, that if the water is little colored, it has no more ability to carry away additional soluble waste?

Thank you for the link, Freelee, but I am not going to buy the book soon. And as I said, I have not saved any links or materials in order to use in a discussion like this. I am not making nutrition to my profession as you do. So I can only promise to give you such information if I have it on hand again, agreed?

Freelee

No you're right looking back now Lena, it seems you weren't making recommendations, my comment was never ment to be personal or harsh but I did find the initial post a little hard to navigate and I may have gotten you mixed up with other responses, so sorry if this in the case :-)

I don't feel you are questioning my experience or beliefs (although that is good because sometimes that's how we learn ) I'm just adding some extra thoughts to this topic and answering your previous reply to me, I'm sure you are interested in hearing from both angles right?. Thank you for your compliment too, i do look my best and feel great.

The maximum amount of time I could handle not drinking ANY water was 3 days before I started feeling unwell. I was actually on one of my fruit Island experiences, believe it or not it was when I was just eating melons, once I added in water I felt considerably better, I was eating only melon for about 7 days prior to excluding water and before that 100% high fruit LFRV for roughly 8months, I was exercising quite a bit too and probably not getting enough calories from melons.

"I only do not see any references to experiments and studies on fruitarians or raw vegans (on no-any-supplements diet)."

- No we don't have any of those yet! I'm not going to wait for scientific research to come out on that one. We will be dead by then ;-D In the meantime my own experience will need to do and the observations of a man who has made his life's work about hydration.

"Apparently within this mucous material, sodium bicarbonate neutralizes the acid before it reaches the stomach wall. But when our body has too little water, this mucous barrier sloughs off, which leaves the stomach acid to eat away at our stomach cells."

- yes the acid is Hydrochloric Acid We have a mucous layer that protects the stomach from hydrochloric acid, which is 98% water. You don't believe ppl eating a fruitarian diet have hydrochloric acid?

"The idea of drinking water constantly only to flash acids away sounds strange to me. We just done saying that it is not preferable to drink after food intake."

- I think you may have misunderstood this... There is no talk of flushing the acid away..., its more a matter of continuing to maintain adequate hydration levels within the stomach so the mucous layer is present hence protecting the stomach wall from the hydrochloric acid which is of course naturally occurring. Drinking water away from meals is the goal for sure and no one is recommending drinking water with their fruit."Less than optimal levels? You think, that if the water is little colored, it has no more ability to carry away additional soluble waste?"

- When the water is slightly coloured it indicates that the body is in a state of mild dehydration so yes it can continue to carry away additional waste but at the cost of us functioning less optimally. When the pee gets more and more yellow, this is an indication that the water within the body is getting saturated in waste, the ratio of toxins:water is getting dangerously high as reflected in how ppl who are dehydrated begin to feel "more toxic", so dilution is required as soon as possible or else with mild dehydration the following can result...(keep in mind a mere drop of 2% bodyweight due to dehydration can impair physical function and performance)

As observed by the Dr Batmanj -"The effects of even mild dehydration include decreased coordination, fatigue, dry skin, decreased urine output, dry mucous membranes in the mouth and nose, blood pressure changes and impairment of judgment. Stress, headache, back pain, allergies, asthma, high blood pressure and many degenerative health problems are the result of UCD (Unintentional Chronic Dehydration).
"Thank you for the link, Freelee, but I am not going to buy the book soon. And as I said, I have not saved any links or materials in order to use in a discussion like this. I am not making nutrition to my profession as you do. So I can only promise to give you such information if I have it on hand again, agreed?"

- ok no problem, if you do find any I would be very interested.

Just wondering if you don't mind sharing what form of exercise you do and how often?
How much water do you currently drink or any at all and how long have you been doing this?

It's great if we can explore this, I'm not knocking you at all Lena, I'm very interested in all this but naturally I am questioning your findings :-)

Lovefree

DURIANRIDER

Maybe you gang will become the new wave of vital 'fruitarians that dont drink water' or maybe youll join the pile of bloated, isolated, fatigued, emaciated and binge prone 'fruitarians' that we have today?

My housemate died last year from renal failure. We take hydration real serious and she used to talk just like you peeps are talk'n now. Its spooky.

Lissa

Lena, thank you so much for sharing your experiences, and thank you to all who have commented. Really interesting topic. I wonder where we hould get our water from, too. I no longer am too much into scientific research. I found it can prove everything and nothing. I always take it into account, but listen more to myself and those with similar experiences (being on a fruit diet, even not 100%, changes so much).

DR, your housemate's story sounds horrible. I wonder if she felt good drinking no water. And how much she was sweating through exercise. I wonder if you can really die just like that without having really unpleasant symptoms in beforehand? Makes me wonder ....

I have always been a big water drinker when I was on cooked food, especially grains caused me to be very thirsty. I have noticed that I can drink similar quantities still on a high fruit diet, but I am not that thirsty anymore. Very pleasant feeling.

I also wondered some years ago why we make a difference between thirst and hunger. It's the same! But if you eat water-free cooked food, you have to add it in somehow later on.

I have had a weird experience a couple of times, not sure how to describe it: I sometimes wake up at night and grab my bottle of water (our room is surely dehydrating and so is the amount of cooked food I eat, even if it's not much). Anyway. Some years ago, I started to really "wake up" n that moment wondering what I was doing. Like if drinking water was wrong. I was really wondering if putting fluid from a bottle in my mouth was right. Hard to describe it but I think you get the picture. It's like those tiny moments when you are not fully focused on what you're doing, and maybe you put on your housemates shoes instead of your own while talking to someone. Somehow you feel something isn't quite right but you only wonder, you don't realize it yet.

I wish I could like on fruit and sun solely. But I don't want to get any health problems either (sure, who would??) so I add in water and greens. I am looking forward to know what my take on this will be in 10 years or so. I am sure I have figured it out by then.

Lissa

And some observation I have made: Since going high fruit 2,5 years ago I have discovered that after a cooked meal with condiments and salt, I need a refreshing drink right away. Often water isn't enough but I need something fizzy with apple juice or so. Lot's of it.

And I feel that ultimately the only thing that really takes care of my thirst is orange juice or melons. I can drink a liter of water but it seems to have no effect. I eat a melon or have OJ and feel much better. Must be the potassium.

L∃N∀

@Freelee

It's all right :) "Hearing from both angles", or better from all angles possible is what I want and what we are aiming here for.

Your experience with melons (watermelons, right?) is very interesting! Here we can see how different we feel in a similar conditions. When I was eating only watermelons for strait 5 or even more days (there were an occasional melon or apples on some point though) several weeks ago, I tried drinking water, but it felt like an overkill, even unpleasant. It felt like it goes straight through my body for no reason.
So, you were having thirst, right? Than why were you truing to avoid water?

To be clear on subject of the conversation. We try to figure out here, whether it is a good strategy at least for some of us to listen to our body signals (thirst) to define how much water we should drink providing we give our bodies ideal nourishment (we think, that it could be fruit and nothing else). Right? So we are not talking about whether or not we should keep us hydrated (certainly yes!) but about best source of water, and we have a hypothesis that it is juicy fruit.

"No we don't have any of those yet!"

Exactly! And till then I refuse to blindly follow advise build on studying people on a completely wrong diet and disregard or interpret in a certain way messages of my own body and other people experiences. I think it is dubious to say "If you have durst than it is already too late" - no, I think it is exactly the right time to hydrate myself. And why "slight dehydration" considered to be so bad? Every morning my pee is slightly colored, whether I drink plenty of water or not. I don't feel bad at all. It's natural - we must sleep for long hours in one piece, so it is totally normal condition for our body to be without any income of liquid for a while.

And what seems important to me, fruit give the water away (into the body) little by little and our body can regulate how much it needs of it to take from virtually non-toxic fruity watery matter in our intestines.

"You don't believe ppl eating a fruitarian diet have hydrochloric acid?"

No, I believe the risk of that happening is lower, and that it is to simplistic and one-sided way to look on it.

"I think you may have misunderstood this..."

Yes, I misunderstood it slightly (I must work on my English), thank you for the explanation, but I still consider it to be of low relevance.

"... [water] can continue to carry away additional waste but at the cost of us functioning less optimally..."

Why less optimally? In natural environments it is very difficult to keep body highly hydrated all the time as I see it, and slight "dehydration" may be the most normal state of the body. And on my experience "the pee gets more and more yellow" never happens, my body transport unneeded liquids long before such change may occur.

"Just wondering if you don't mind sharing what form of exercise you do and how often?
How much water do you currently drink or any at all and how long have you been doing this?"

I run (1-1.5 hours, 8-12 km) and do my jump/dance/exercise routine (40-50 minutes), yoga (chosen asanas) but not every day, sometimes I do nothing other than little yoga for weeks, but normally I train on average every second day.
As to running, almost two years ago I was training for half marathon and ended up running more than that (25 km) in my training 2-3 times a week. In that time I was experimenting with low food intake (because I had low appetite) and was eating 2-5 apples, some almonds (sure raw, it was in Europe) and 1-2 other fruits a day, and I drunk water ~1 liter a day (in the morning and noon, before eating, maybe some in the evening) the whole time, ~ 8 weeks, because there was not enough of it in my food. Everything went great, it was enjoyable experience, I only felt uncomfortable in my knees some times (especially after one time running 3 hours without stop). It may be, that luck of liquid caused it partly I guess.

As to the second part of your question, that is hard to say exactly, because I don't measure what I eat thoroughly. But I am going to pay attention to it and maybe make a week report (maybe next week).

@DURIANRIDER

Thank you for participating! Yet again, it is not our aim to exclude water just for the sake of it.

Sorry, I am not with you on spookiness in my case :) You should describe you friend's situation in detail before we can discuss it.

@Lissa

I read so much articles and even books on nutrition, that sometimes I feel silly for investing a huge chunk of my lifetime into it, just to realize: there is no known limitation to living just on fruit, and I may take remarks like "wait, you are going to die from severe illnesses rather soon" sceptically :)

Your thoughts are in resonance with mine Lissa, and your experience is similar to mine. Your sentence "I wish I could like on fruit and sun solely" brings me to an idea:

A question to you guys, who eat leafy greens every day: don't you think that this dense food make you feel thirsty because your body don't need lots of stuff in it?

@ And to Freelee again: I read your article on menstruation (http://sweetjuicyfreelee.com/2010/05/03/that-bloody-time-of-the-month/), where you say "when you are losing blood, you are losing water as well, so your water needs will increase". I am quite confused. Are you actually loosing so much blood that it is needed to be replaced? Is it more than few spoons a day? And when did you write the article? (I couldn't find the date).

Fruity Jules

Dear Lena. . .

I am still in agreement with you and loving it! ♥ Yes, I have the same thoughts about the large quantities of greens.

You may be interested in this quote from Nora Lenz of www.rawschool.com. Nora has been a LFRV for 10 years, and a fruitarian for the last 5 years. A couple of days ago, there was a discussion somewhere about how many times people urinate a day, and asking what was optimal. She responded:

"I'm down to about 7 now, which is still too much, imo. It is my considered (and unpopular) opinion that peeing *less* should be the goal of everyone who seeks optimal health. There is no benefit in forcing our bodies to deal with excess water, no matter what form it is consumed in. The most obvious evidence of this is when we must wake up at night and sacrifice our precious sleeping time for urinating. Many important processes are conducted ONLY during sleep, such as the regeneration of nerve energy. No matter how minor, any disruption to sleep represents a net loss for our bodies. When I'm eating the proper (adequate) quantities of food, I urinate very seldomly, maybe 2-4 times a day, and I don't pee at night."

It is fascinating to me the various opinions and insights of peeps. It seems we all have much to learn and understand through our own experiences. :)

L∃N∀

Thank you Jules! The site is so interesting, I am going to read her bio soon.

Eating many watermelons last 2-3 months I am by 7 too. And I am totally agree with her on sleep! I researched the subject recently, and and to think that uninterrupted sleeping process (it is not just resting, it's a hard work in some phases) is more important health factor than nutrition. I wake up at night almost never, and feel ready to go from the first minute of awakening, my mind is clear and sharp, and I want it to be this way as long as possible.

I realized today that the most of my dietary wrongdoing is due to inability to get proper fruit - ripe, right kind(s), fresh, tasty, right quantity, in right time. And then I usually need some stability and nice place to be, harmonious relationships or quiet loneliness. And even if I manage for a long time to provide myself with all of it, it comes the time when something happens, then again, and I find myself tired and hungry with no real food and unable to switch to fasting mode because of emotional uneasiness or worse.

And then about people: meeting so many in the analog world I encountered my first vegetarian (the girl was even vegan) after 11 years of feeling myself as a hidden outsider wherever I go. I had years of regular restaurant visits, where I often couldn't order even something vegan and drunk water, wine or tee to help my hanger and awkwardness. In the best case I was picking in a plate with cut tomato or veggies while business crowd around cut blood stakes or friends rolled their pasta on spoons. Saying no on parties to almost everything, and people take "no" in astoundingly personal way... trying to sound not that moralizing...

So communication with raw vegans and fruitarians is a social luxury I have in internet, thus I am with you on that Jules: it is fascinating.

 PS: Nora Lenz is so right on mono-eating:
"I now realize that the desire to mix foods together in complex combinations has nothing to do with hunger and everything to do with an inappropriate and unnatural need to stimulate or entertain ourselves with food."

She is very positive. I did not like her narrowed photographs though :) (http://www.rawschool.com/photos.htm)

And interesting, many people start to have "cleansing events" when they go 100% raw (I do not hold "crisis" for only cleansing but that's another story), but I feel perfect. My periods of bodily discomfort correlate with times I am down with my spirit or non-raw picking.

BTW, a little about perspiration - I have it much less that other people I observed, even if I run long time, even in hot weather, and it starts to be noticeable later than by others.

Lighty

Anne Osborne (18 years of fruitarism) doesn't drink water, only when she fasts or sometimes on mono-diet.

Fruity Jules

Yes, my friend Kveta (20+ years fruitarian) also doesn't drink water. She gets all the living water she needs in juicy fruit.

L∃N∀

@Lightly, thank you for the comment, - I did not know that yet but feel good about it :)

By the way, Anne joint yesterday a new site on fruitarianism that I am making (still adjusting style and navigation, and small things). You all here guys are hearty invited to join if you like it and have time: http://fruitarians.net

@Jules, she either? That is really interesting! I feel even better. I have lost contact with Kveta a couple of years ago, I guess I should check on her blog again.

Franz Konz, born in 1926, German financier, raw-foodist, does not drink water for ~30 years.
http://www.urkost.fuer-uns.de (in German)